(Editor’s note: this conversation was completed before Game 1 of the Finals and we are all stoked for Toronto. Game 2 is going to be nuts.)
Carter Pearson: John, welcome to the Finals!
It’s been almost a full tennis tournament since the Warriors played, and the Raps just got off a grueling series.
I think we can do a mini-preview at the end, but I want to take a step back and look at what a win, loss, or DNP-Calf means for the guys in this series.
Can we start with Steph? Besides he and Ayesha’s pretty lame marketing, he is the most fun player in the league, and I am openly rooting for a Warriors win and a Steph Finals MVP.
If he wins a title, that’s 4 Finals in 5 years, 2 MVPs, 6 straight years on All NBA and someone who completely changed the direction of the NBA. Even if he doesn’t win, I think he is the most influential player of the 21st century. LeBron is better, but he evolved how the game was always played. Steph (and Daryl Morey) completely changed how basketball is played at the highest level. People talk about gravity on a basketball court now. And not in the sense of jump high and fall down. It’s wild.
I think there are 5 guys who changed the league completely: Mikan, Wilt, Bird/Magic, Jordan, Curry. Those are basically the eras of the NBA. Mikan breaks the league, so they widen the lane. Wilt does the same, so they keep tweaking the rules. The NBA gets sad and cocaine filled, Bird/Magic save it. Jordan turns it into the most profitable league to market. Then Curry and the Warriors come around and turn open 24 footers into better shots than dunks. I know Judson’s documentary did it in like 15 hours, but that’s the overarching narrative in a paragraph.
Q: What do you think this means if the Warriors win? And, maybe more importantly, how does it affect his place if they lose?
J.D. Crabtree: Legacy. Global influence. Immortality. Valhalla.
These are things all Davidson students are taught to pursue during their formative years down in North Carolina. And Steph made sure he took heed of the call.
That’s a pretty interesting list of those causing seismic shifts in the league, but it’s especially crazy to think your point about LeBron not being named is exactly right. I’m comfortable saying that if Steph didn’t create this new landscape LeBron would have a title or two more to round out the Jordan era as his equal….and then all the three-pointers bombard the league.
The leading Splash brother got caught in one of those luck-filled infernos that scorch a league for a decade or so with a perfect fit, time, and place. Keep in mind this take is not knocking Steph, I think we can all agree he would be still be knocking down crazy 3s if he was drafted by the Charlotte Hornets years ago, it just wouldn’t be as electric or impactful as his current set-up. An obvious cross-sport example of this is the Brady-Belichick situation that has enraged the AFC for decades. It almost feels like destiny once you sit back and examine it.
If the Warriors win we need to start talking all-time things. The only team ever to make five consecutive appearances in the NBA Finals was the 1960s Boston Celtics, so the Warriors already have that going for them. But there also has never been an NBA team that has won more games over a five-year stretch, which is 75%, so absolute killers. With a win this year it’s time to include the Warriors with that Celtics team, the Jordan Bulls, and the Shaq-Kobe Lakers as the most dominant teams the game has seen.
For Steph individually he is forcing himself into the elites. I mean the man has some serious bling to back it up compared to those that worship the Allen Iversons and Jason Kidds of the world. Let’s look at this crowdsourced Top NBA Players ranking, even if half of those votes are by 12 year olds it’s more or less serviceable for this conversation. Steph is only 31, so a win this year and continued success has to push him into dangerous territory – perhaps the guard counterpart of the Tim Duncan reign. Him doing this without Durant for most of the playoffs has to help this perception.
If the Warriors lose, then I believe the team still makes it into that elite tier and Steph has more work to do.
Q: So, do you think we are watching a top 25 player all time and a top 5 dynasty all time for the next two weeks?
Yes. 100%. To go off of that list (which is pretty funny – Jerry West way too low, Drexler too high) I think Steph is top 25 and the Warriors are the 5th best team ever if they lose. If they win, Steph is at least 14th, and would have an argument above Kobe, Shaq, Oscar and Dr. J for me. Teamwise, the Warriors leapfrog the 80s Celtics and Lakers to be the 3rd best team ever – after Jordan and the 60s Celtics.
(Sidenote: I don’t love the late 90s, early 2000s Lakers because I always thought Shaq was a bully and Kobe Bryant is a complete narcissist. He also did the stupid celebration where you put out your bottom jaw, and now a lot of people (including Giannis and also dumb white kids on the Nansemond-Suffolk Academy JV basketball team) do it. It’s a bad celebration and I blame those Lakers teams. Also, the league completely hosed both the Kings and Portland during that title run. So, they are out.)
I love your Duncan comparison for Steph. Duncan is the best power forward ever, and was a tone-setter for a team that won 5 titles in 19 years. Duncan was respected by the basketball literati, but the casual fan did not appreciate his game. Steph is the most popular player in the league since Jordan, but isn’t respected by a lot of players in the league, some of whom think he’s soft. Russell Westbrook in particular relishes going at him.
(Another side note: there’s an interesting connection between player’s perception of Steph and his skin-tone, explored here, that spurred some comments from Draymond in 2017 and again during the Portland series. I’m in no-way qualified to comment on this, but it’s an interesting sub-sub-sub plot.)
Steph didn’t only change the game with his shot, he completely built the culture in GSW, turning a team, and ownership group, that was a laughingstock, into a model franchise that is “light years ahead”.
The headlines of those pieces are astounding, and they are about the same guy.
Pre-Steph: How to Annoy a Fan Base in 60 Easy Steps
Post-Steph: What Happened When Venture Capitalists Took Over the Golden State Warriors
That is some wild shit. Even if the second isn’t completely fulsome in its praise, and the “light years” quote came back to bite him in the ass, the difference in those 4 years can be boiled down to Steph.
Q:But, we know he is good. Next man up – what does this series mean for Draymond?
JD: Ya anyone who hoses the late 90s, early 2000s Kings is an enemy in my book. Also favorite picture ever.
You are very, VERY high on Steph. Is that 14th slot a projection or current ranking after this series? The only point I’m going to disagree with is him jumping Kobe Bryant this early in his career. I’m also putting Kobe over Steph because I know it’ll piss you off.
While Kobe will never win the ‘Most Liked’ superlative, he did win a lot. He also won championships with two different rosters. I think Steph is winning with the same roster in addition to the best player on the planet added as a wingmate. That would be like if the 2009 Lakers added Lebron for a title run, pretty unfair. So I respect Kobe for winning with different rosters almost a decade later than the first title stretch.
But enough about these really good players, let’s talk about someone less good: Draymond.
I’ve always respected his contributions and game but I’ve never been that high on him compared to those that basically want to put him in the Hall of Fame. Continuing the use of this Brady-Belichick analogy, Draymond is the Gronkowski of the Warriors. He’s the brute that gets to play a strange hero role because opponent’s focus needs to be severely divided.
I don’t think Draymond can ever be ‘the guy’ on another team, and that’s a knock since he makes All-Star teams. But he’s not another team, he’s on the Warriors and is probably going to win another ring, so my theories don’t matter. Similar to Steph, these accolades pole vault the players above the peers. And it’s fair since winning is the whole purpose of this league (someone tell Russell this). He’s looking at his fourth title and has the best regular season and postseason run ever on his resume. 3 All-Star teams. Two All-NBA teams. Defensive Player of the Year. His trophy case would embarrass other forwards in the league. Looking at you Blake Griffin.
I have no choice but to put him on the trajectory of all-time power forwards. Think Elvin Hayes, Malone, Rodman and co. But it’s not without a major scowl on my face because he operates within the Warriors machine. O well, I guess all ships rise with the tide.
Q: How green are you on Green? And here’s another question for ya, does this year’s title run in some way hurt Durant’s legacy?
I’m pretty high on Draymond, and I think you are too. Gronk is the best tight end ever, so that’s good company, even if he is an ancillary piece to Tom and Belichick. (Holy shit are Kerr and Curry so much cooler than those guys.)
But, I don’t think he’s in all time power forward territory — where Malone is. He is an all time teammate and defensive player. He’s the ultimate third banana. But on this team he gets to be 4th, which explains why they are winning titles for fun.
I see him as a Rodman, James Worthy, Robert Parrish, Dennis Johnson, Manu Ginobili, Chris Bosh type. Those guys filled roles, but weren’t necessarily interchangeable role players. Their roles allowed more talented guys on their team to thrive, and get all the accolades, but they were singular guys who could have filled them.
No one else was running the break and dunking like Worthy, Euro-stepping around picks like Manu, pick and popping like Bosh or mowing dudes down on screens and the boards like Parrish. And no one else is defending 5 positions, pulling down trip-dubs and yelling in dudes’ grills like Draymond. And I am here for it.
I am especially here for it after his Mom gave him a talking to and he stopped yelling at the refs after every call. I’d much rather he yell in Serge Ibaka’s face than Tony Brothers (shout out to my high school soccer team mate, Travis, his son).
On to KD — I have no original take on him. I guess I’ll just go with a shrug emoji. I don’t think anything that happens in this series changes how I, or anyone else, should feel about him. He’s clearly a Top 4 guy in the league right now. And the Warriors (and the league) are more fun to watch when he doesn’t play for them. Both of those can be true. They aren’t better without him. That’s a dumb take. But, they are super fun to watch with Curry and Draymond running pick and rolls.
Honestly, I think this series can only improve my opinion of Durant. If he doesn’t play, and the Warriors either lose, or go to a long series and he saves them, he’s is the savior and was crucial to one of the best teams ever. If he doesn’t play and they sweep or win 4-1, then he is still one of the best players in the league, Top 20 ever, and the most skilled person over 7 feet y’all in the history of humans. That’s pretty okay. He’s also just kind of emo and weird on-line, which I guess we can all relate to. I think if he’d just follow the adage of “never tweet” his life would be better.
And, bear with me here, because I’m about to make a 7 foot tall, incredibly athletic human the victim and a bunch of under 6 feet tall former intramural 6th men the victims. But, I think Durant is getting bullied by the media. It’s clear that he is shook by all the talk about who is better, and I think people are just piling on.
His “you mean us?” press conference was the culmination of this. It’s weird for him to call that out, but it also shows he is a super introspective guy who is concerned about his place in the league and what his teammates think of him. I’m rooting for him.
Before we move on to the Raptors, I’ve got to give some words to Klay. I’m not really sure where to place him, but he’s the second most fun guy to watch shoot I have ever seen, after that one white kid from Wofford. Really, he’s just a great dude who loves his dog and chocolate milk. I hope he gets hot for at least a quarter during this series because I like watching him make 29-footers off screens and then stick his tongue out.
Onto the Raps, and by that, I mean on to Kawhi, as he’s the only one on their team with all-time place up for grabs. I have no takes or opinions on the rest of their team, except I like Kyle Lowry, Fred VanVleet has a great beard and perhaps birthed the Second Coming (77% from 3 since the rebirth of our lord and savior).
Q: What say you on Kawhi? Is he an actual destroyer of worlds? Or is he about to hit the wall?
JD: Well if Durant wants to be emo then he needs to do emo things and go against the grain, not play for the Warriors. That means refusing to play for any team and sitting in the old SuperSonics arena waiting to play 1-on-5 against any NBA team that thinks they can beat him. Imagine the Magic travelling on foot to go play the mighty Durantala.
But about Kawhi. Since Durant might as well have been in the PNW these playoffs Kawhi has seized the spotlight, even though he hates said spotlight. Pro sports fans are bloodthirsty for playoff heroes – everyone subconsciously likes to know they are watching the fable unfold in front of their devoted eyes. Kawhi has delivered. He has game-winners and he has stat stuffers. He just slayed the Greek dragon.
What’s that cheesy Paulo Coelho quote that is made into inspa-posters. O ya it’s “when you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.” That’s how these playoffs feel with Kawhi, a crazy energy around his trajectory toward the throne. So I’m leaning toward destroyer of worlds. And a durable one I might add. Check out his minutes from the Bucks series:
42, 37, 52, 34, 40, 41
Average fans are probably like, so what, stars play lots of minutes. But alas Cookie, we are not your average fans! We know that Kawhi plays the Atlas Shrugged role for the Raptors, he holds most of their confidence in his hands/claws. Thus his 40 minutes are 40 minutes of nonstop defense and point-forward play with close to zero downtime. This is because he is 27 years old and probably takes ridiculously good care of his body as he drives around in his ‘97 Tahoe. So no wall this year, Kawhi will give us max performance against the Warriors.
(Side note! Would be a big fan of Kawhi changed his nickname from The Claw to The Alchemist.)
This year has also been great for his public image, something he doesn’t take good care of. I did not enjoy the hate he received from the Spurs debacle. The media snowballed that into a situation that made it awkward for everyone. A championship this year makes all that disappear – Duncan, Parker, and Ginobli are more or less retired so as time passes Leonard will be associated with the championship instead of the departure.
Ok final verdict on Kawhi. A title against the Warrior puts him on the Dwayne Wade trajectory. Illustrious career that is respected by both peers and fans, but never the face of the league.
Hey, you know what’s interesting about the league is that its moving to the three best players being Kawhi, Durant, and Giannis. That’s a major personality shift from the past twenty years since we have been used to either some dawgs (Garnett, Vince, Iverson) or major flash+coolness (Wade, Kobe, Melo). Interested to see the how this era unfolds led by freakishly tall lanky dudes who like to read comic books.
Q: Any other legacy stuff we are missing if the Raptors pull this off? Marc Gasol gets a bump? Danny Green sneaks closer to a poor man’s Ray Allen? Pascal enters the All-Star portal?
CP: LeBron is v upset to be left out of your latest list. I think really the Raps are all about Kawhi. If he puts up points and defends, they win. If he is limited, they do not. Siakam, Lowry, Gasol and Green/VV may pop for a game, but Kawhi has to be metronomically brilliant for them to win.
I have a bad take about how society is getting soft by being on-line too much, and the top 3 guys you mentioned represent that and align with a particular platform.
Giannis is Instagram. Always living his best life and flexing and eating green smoothies.
Durant is Twitter. Angry and emo and out to prove he’s the smartest guy in the room.
Kawhi is Facebook because no one uses that shit anymore. It’s just ads for things you don’t buy, like his New Balance shoes.
(Oh and Andrew Bogut is 4chan because he is a MAGA racist)
Digressions aside, I think this is a really interesting Finals and am excited to see where we net out. I’m hopeful for Warriors in 6 with one large Drake beef. But, I’d be okay with anyone in 7 and shit getting wild before Durant and Kawhi both sign for the Clippers in 5 weeks.
Let’s goooooooooo.
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