Carter Pearson: Hey J.D. – hope you’re doing well, sir.
I’m sure you’re excited for some Mahomes action in your life very soon. He’s legit the first NFL player I have been excited to watch since Reggie Bush. I hope things turn out better for Pat than Reg.
I cannot wait for him to throw a behind-the-back pass in an NFL game, which a ton of outlets have reported he practices all the time. There are so many reasons why this will be the best #content.
First – people on TV are going to be so mad. Skip Bayless and Clay Travis are going to make him a cross between Colin Kaepernick and Elijah Muhammed.
Second – people on the other team are going to be so mad. What if he does it against J.J. Watt? Or against the other Watt? Or the other, other Watt? The locker room quotes about “respect for the game and your opponents” from dudes who will literally twist your balls under a pile are going to be too much for me to handle.
Last week, the NY Times released an on-line poll that purported to tell whether you were a Republican or Democrat in 6 questions. People “like me” are +19 Republican, which is, umm, not like me.
The question “How do you feel about Patrick Mahomes throwing a behind the back pass?” could predict party affiliation more accurately in just one question. And if you don’t know who Patrick Mahomes is, you’re clearly a Republican.
Anyway – there is a point to this. I know people are here for the basketball.
Patrick Mahomes is the Vince Carter of the NFL – he does shit that was unfathomable before, and will not be repeated immediately following. A lot of guys have a signature move that people copy (the MJ fadeaway, the Kobe stick-out-your-jaw, the JJ Redick curl and pop). You couldn’t copy the shit Vince did, and I don’t think anyone will copy Mahomes for a long time.
He was the most fun player of the early 2000s. There may have been cooler players since then, but Vince Carter was the coolest, most famous basketball player in the world for the 1999 and 2000 NBA seasons. And then he screwed it up. And then he got back on track and is the most beloved old-head in the league. He even has a podcast with the youths.
He also happened to have my first name as his last, so of course I loved him and had his jersey, even though our games were slightly different.
Vince Carter was drafted in 1998 out of UNC (boo), and immediately traded for his college teammate, Antwan Jamison. That was not a good trade for the Warriors. At the end of this season, he will have played NBA basketball for 20 years of his life. He will also be the first player to play in four different decades when he suits up in January 2020.
(To all our friends born in 1989: you will also have been alive in five different decades by then. #trulywashed)
Everyone knows about the dunks, but I’ll just leave this video from the 2000 dunk contest here.
That was the greatest dunk contest performance ever. He was so much better than everyone else.
(Side note: He also didn’t do anything gimmicky. He just jumped really high and did athletic things. No capes, no cars, no B-list celebs throwing him alley-oops that take 9 attempts to make. Can we please return to the purity of the dunk contest?)
He was going to the Finals in 2000, and, while he probably would’ve gotten beaten by Kobe/Shaq Lakers, it would’ve been incredible to watch him and Kobe go head to head. Kobe was obviously a better player, but Vince was at the peak of his athletic powers, and probably would’ve yammed on Shaq at least once. Can you imagine him attempting a Fred Weis on Shaq? The thought makes me all tingly.
And then, he went to his college graduation before a Game 7. I understand this as a personal decision. And I’m proud he went back to get his degree and wanted to be there. But, the narrative arc of the whole thing is not great. Charles Oakley was not pleased about it. The NYTimes editorial page had thoughts! I found upwards of 5 Raptor fan blogs debating whether Oakley was right. It was a thing!
Before looking up the stats, I remember him having a bad game and missing a potential game winner on NBA on NBC. So that’s the narrative that sticks with people.
And the narrative is right. Vince averaged 32 points per game through the first 6 games of the series. He had 50 points in Game 3. In Game 7, he had 20 points and missed the game winner in front of the largest NBA on NBC audience ever. So, either the travel affected him, the constant double teams did, or he was trying to create a blueprint for future James Harden chokes.
Thus began 4 years of not great times for Vince. His cousin T-Mac left Toronto before they could actually become Jordan and Pippen 2.0. Left on his own, he didn’t make the playoffs for 4 years in his prime (inexcusable for a superduper star). He got hurt. A lot. He sulked his way out of Toronto into a trade to the Nets, who had J.Kidd, but whose second leading playoff scorer was Nenad Kristic (look it up, folks. Not great.)
Once he got to the Nets, it took a few years to wash off the “I quit on a city stink”, and by then he was 30 and had made his last All-Star team (of 8 in a row). By then, LeBron was ascending. He was… a lot better than everyone else in the Eastern Conference.
The most talented and exciting player of his generation ended up with Terry Porter and Eddie Jones as his most similar players on Basketball Reference.
But, this ignores something really cool that has happened since 2011. Vince became beloved, and realized he wanted to play basketball, regardless of his role. He joined the Mavs just after their 2011 title, and made the playoffs five of the six years between 2011 and 2017. Don’t look at his playoff stats. Just don’t.
What matters is that he reinvented himself. He wasn’t Air Canada anymore, but he was still super serviceable as Spirit Air. He’s not going to give you a pillow, or even water, but he will give you twenty good minutes, teach the young guys the right way to work, and shoot some 3s. He won’t crash.
I really respect that, and Vince is a great example of knowing your role, evolving as your skills change, and providing value in more ways than on-the-court that a lot of players (cough, Carmelo) could learn from. By doing these things, and being a great teammate, Vince had one career as a wannabe Jordan and another career as Danny Green. That’s pretty cool. We’ll always have the dunk contest, VC.
So – J.D. – I’d love to hear some words about your favorite players growing up – college or pro. Who affected how you think about the game? Who was really fun to watch? Did you gravitate towards guys named John?
J.D. Crabtree: Carter, hey. So this was my inner dialogue reading your opener:
“Looks like NFL talk to start. All good.”
…
“OK. A football list, still off-topic, should be entertaining. Gotta trust him JD.”
…
“Carter, what the hell do Patrick Mahomes and the New York Times have to do with basketball?!”
…
“Ahh, I see. Vince Carter things. Well done sir. But now I’m sweating.”
Thanks for bringing up Mahomes. As a Chiefs fan I always share the same response when people ask how I feel about having him: Nervous. I am nervous because I feel the way Ponce de Leon would have felt if he ever discovered The Fountain of Youth, in sole possession of the world’s greatest treasure. So I’d be nervous I would lose it, have it stolen, broken, or mismanaged and never be able to emotionally recover. Pat Mahomes was the NFL MVP at twenty-three years old, at quarterback. That almost guarantees your franchise is going to be a Superbowl contender for over a decade. I guess with great power comes great responsibility.
Back to basketball. I love the premise that you have laid out. It is why sports heroes are so attractive to the youth, giving young-ins something positive to drool over and provide inspiration to shoot free throws in the driveway until 1 in the morning. We can’t lose that as a society. Less vaping and more windmill dunks in 7 foot goals is what I am trying to say.
Before I jump to my guys let me give quick thoughts on yours:
– Vince was a baaaaaad dude. And since you brought up Antwan, I’m going to bring up their UNC team that still leaves me starstruck. Vince. Antwan. Ed Cota, Haywood. Sorry, best gathering I could find: #2 UNC vs #1 Duke (1998)
– I want it to be made clear that you created an iconic list of MJ, Kobe, and….JJ Redick. Myself, and whoever else I can find, will find a way to penalize you later.
– How many of those Raptors fan blogs are still kickin’? How many did you stumble across that came into existence post-Kawhi trade?
– Great tour d’horizon of the Canadian superstar that most of the world will only remember for the dunk contests. He is going to do something special after this final season, you can tell its in his DNA and his underwhelming journey humbled him the right way.
I’ve decided to create a David Foster Wallace-esque footnote for my most obvious choice of favorite player growing up. I know it will derail this great start. I’m just trying to protect us all Carter.
Moving on to Tier 2, I became obsessed with the early 2000s Sacramento Kings as a kid. I am confident that at the time I didn’t really understand where Sacramento was, but I was confident that they should be the Kings. This infatuation was also the first time that I was subconsciously drawn to an underdog, because I still love a good underdog. I was also drawn to their weirdness. Please look at this roster:
– Vlade Daddy
– Türkoğlu
– Mateen Cleaves
– Funderburke
– Bobby Jackson
– Scot Pollard (when he looked like Sugar Ray)
They don’t make rosters like they used to Carter. Some like to call them a “Super Team”, and I disagree. They had Chris Webber, who made five all-star teams, but other than that it was a strange group of humans who had niche superpowers. Vlade would flop. Peja would shoot 3s. And Doug Christie would look like Vin Diesel.
They never won a title. Sad. But what that Kings team excelled at was proving that an unorthodox group of basketball players who shunned stereotypes can set the National Basketball Association on fire. And some scrubby red-headed kid in middle Tennessee liked that.
I also became attached to Steve Francis. He was very athletic and had Russell Westbrook vibes. Maybe that’s why he didn’t win a title.
Carter, what did you look for as a young chap in rural Virginia? Highlight-reel plays? Likability? Did you try to pick guys you could emulate?
And how much did Duke have a factor in these decisions?
CP: J.D. –– I wish you great luck with Patrick Mahomes. As a Redskins fan, I have no hope of ever contending for anything, so you might as well be happy.
I also have a few notes before I answer your question.
First – that Carolina team was incredibly fun. It really pains me to say this, but Ed Cota was a cool cat. He used to do this thing where he faked a behind the back pass, then wrapped that dribble all the way around to his left hand. It was really cool and I think I practiced it for approximately 25 hours to do it approximately one time in an AAU game. My t-rex arms were not conducive to making this look cool or work.
Second – MJ, Kobe and JJ are the 3 best guards of all-time (not in that order), so that list makes perfect sense.
Third – The early 00s Kings were the original hipster NBA team. Vlade and C-Webb was the ultimate finesse frontline and the referee-fueled collapse against the Lakers is one of the great tragedies of this period in the league. They deserved a title and the league took it from them (I think). Also, you neglected to mention that Doug Christie’s insane wife was also on this team.
Side note – Harry Giles and Marvin Bagley have some of the C-Webb/Vlade high-low stuff going on right now in Sac-Town. With them and Fantastic Mr. Fox leading the break, the Kings are making the playoffs this year. (slightly spicy prediction #1)
Back to childhood heroes – I’m a bit ashamed to say that Duke factored heavily in my initial basketball idols. Kids are horrible front-runners and I was no exception. Specifically, whoever started at point for Duke was in the running to be my favorite player. I had a pretty good run of Wojo, Jay Williams and Chris Duhon. Then I got a bit older, realized I wasn’t actually going to play point for Duke and that it was okay to like other players. Also, Duke started Greg Paulus and DeMarcus Nelson who were both bad in extremely different and troubling ways.
Beyond that, I liked guards who had a cool move that I could emulate. If I was 9 now, I’d exclusively be taking step backs and pulling up from 32 feet. The Ed Cota bit above gives you a sense of this, but more NBA-relevant examples are:
- Allen Iverson – I was very into Allen Iverson. I crossed over a lot of imaginary defenders before nailing an 18 foot pull up in many a driveway. I had the A1, A5 and A6s. All very fresh shoes. All white with grey accents. Also, part of the most iconic ad in early 2000s NBA history. Go watch Allen Iverson dribble and Jadakiss rap. Thank me later.
- Jason Williams – not the murderer or the failed motorcyclist, but White Chocolate himself. The behind-the-back, off-the-elbow pass is the silliest, riskiest, funnest move ever. It is also a good way to dent your parents car.
- Steve Nash – the purest of my idols. I was just starting to get heavily into soccer at this point, and Steve Nash played point like Cesc Fabregas. Even though he was the smallest player on the court, he controlled the tempo, dished out shots evenly, and got so many finishers paid. Joe Johnson, Amar’e and Shawn Marion were all great players, but Steve got them probably $100 million extra dollars. Then he resurrected Grant Hill (!) and Channing Frye (!!) from the dead. Steve was amazing and should have won a title. I always dock the Spurs the 2010 title because of the Horry Hip-Check and Suns suspensions. Not to go full Joe Biden, but that was some malarkey.
What about you? What did (does) a guy have to do to burrow his way deep into your NBA heart?
JD: That Ed Cota highlights soundtrack is nostalgic.
Also I just got this Nash portrait from Michael Walchalk. So ya, everything you said about him gives me the same sensational feelings across my body.
As you know I’m a big college guy, so usually they had to earn their fandom stripes by showing out there first, then I would violently cheer for them to succeed in the league. I was too young, but Nash would have been a great example of a guy whose college heroics would have caused me to gamble my basketball energy and funds on his future: 1993 No. 15 Santa Clara over No. 2 Arizona 64-61
My philosophy will gain more gravitas once everyone reads my final section on Who Shall Not Be Named Yet So We Can Have A Structured Conversation.
Here is a list of others who struck me with Cupid’s jump shot:
- Nick Collison – SPOILER ALERT: The 2000-2003 Kansas years were very special to me. Not only was Nick Collison the likable version of Tyler Hansbrough, but he stayed true to his midwestern breeding and spent his entire career with the Sonics/Thunder franchise, even when that meant succeeding all of his minutes to the up-and-coming Steven Adams. The flyover states salute you Nick.
- Adam Morrison – Adam was the first player that proved to me don’t have to look like a Duke or UNC product in order to dominate. And when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro, unfortunately Adam couldn’t figure out the professional game. But Carter it might be best that we only remember him for the pacific northwest-fueled chaos he bestowed upon us.
- Jameer Nelson – If you weren’t a fan of the Delonte West+Jameer Nelson+Pat Carroll 03-04 team, I probably de-friended you on MySpace and we haven’t talked since.
- David West – This was the first time I started to understand you could 1) fall in love with mid-major darlings and 2) witness their ability to accumulate power 5 fans whose teams have been bounced. West came into every game and bodied the entire opposing roster. It was either a dunk on some timid forward, or a mid range jumper because said timid forward was playing five feet off. Think what Steph did with Davidson a decade or so ago. Also as a kid I’m sure I was thinking “wtf is Xavier?”.
- Steve Blake – Because of this steal. Sorry I’m seeing a pattern here, maybe I’m drawn to humiliating moments for your team. To be fair I was a neutral fan watching this game, and that sequence of gym rat decisions put me on my feet.
- Shane Battier – See? I like Dukies. Shane Battier represented all that can be good in basketball, you know, plays the game “the right way” and such. I am not sure we will see another player that is the high school player of the year —> spend four years at a university while accumulating national titles and national player of the year awards —> have a long, successful career in the NBA (with championships). It is mighty hard to cheer against the Battiers of the world. He also looks like the Derek Jeter mixed with a Premier League coach.
So that’s my formula. Wine and dine with college heroics, and I will come crawling back every year in the pros, even if you are averaging 10/4/3 on a non-playoff team.
Do you think these peculiar fandom approaches such as our still exist for today’s youth? Or with the rise of social media and mega-stars in the 21st century kids are becoming more polarized? Like the only like LeBron or Durant and everyone else is “garbage” in their eyes.
CP: That’s a strong list, Crabtree.
I think you’re a bit of an outlier, basketball-wise. You liked frontrunners, but college frontrunners. And you delved into the weird fairly quickly. Also, how anyone in their right mind could like Steve Blake is beyond me. That guy was the worst. I think I hated the Steve Blake-Juan Dixon Maryland team more than any UNC team of my childhood. Its okay though because Juan Dixon is now a C-list character on the Real Housewives of Potomac. I came home the other day and he was on my TV. It was very disorienting.
But, I digress. As evidenced by my list, kids have always been attracted to stars and thought everyone else was garbage. Social media may accentuate it, as people don’t even have to watch Sportscenter to see highlights now, or games to see an entire night’s work from Giannis. But, you don’t develop an appreciation for the the quirky or the gritty until you have played enough basketball to think “I’d wanna play with him” or “that guy seems fun and strange and also has a very bad haircut” (Captain Kirk). At 10-11, you just think “I’m going to play in the league and of course I’ll be a point guard, so I better practice pull up 3s.”
So, I’m not worried because I think 17-year-olds appreciate Andre Iguodala’s hands, or the way Nikola Jokic plays point-center, or the way Kemba pauses in a pick-and-roll. I think there are lots of 6’5″ high schools who probably look at Trevor Ariza and think “okay, all I have to do is play defense, shoot threes, and they’ll give me $100 million over my career. That’s dope.” Maybe not – I’ve never been a wildly athletic 6’5″ person.
Okay – I’m dying to know. Who is your guy? I tried to guess, and was leaning toward a small guard from either UConn (Kemba, Shabazz) or Arizona (Bibby, Miles Simon, Salim Stoudamire).
But then I remembered Gerry M. Its him, right?
JD: Great guesses. I never got on the UConn train but I did enjoy the Lute Olson Arizona days when no one cared about recruiting violations. I want to like Mr. McNamara but it will become clear further down why it would break my basketball ethics. Who’s my guy? Who’s my greatest basketball inspiration of all time? Who sits on the throne in my hoops heaven?
Why Carter, It’s Kirk Hinrich.
And I would now like to welcome everyone to the Hinrich Zone.
Below is around 10-15% of the history and opinions I have written on him. Please contact me directly if you would like the complete archives. Here is how I became obsessed with Kirk Hinrich:
High School
Kirk attended West High School, a public secondary school in Sioux City, Iowa. On their Wikipedia page Kirk is the only name you can click on other than Sarah Palin and John McCain due to Palin holding a school rally in the gymnasium during the 2008 presidential election campaign. Kirk is this high school’s claim to fame with their dance squad coming in a close second by winning 104 out 136 competitions up to 2009. That is impressive. Kirk and the dance squad put the Wolverines on the map.
Kirk was named the 1999 Co-Iowa Mr. Basketball with, you’ll never guess who, Nick Collison. Kirk later committed to the University of Kansas, because who doesn’t love a good Sioux City/Lawrence commute.
Freshman Year
Kirk was blessed with an incredible freshman class to come into program with, Nick Collison (his best friend forever) and Drew Gooden. All three went on to be NBA first round picks so I would say it was a successful recruiting class. It was a rebuilding year for Kansas and the following years success rode heavily on their shoulders.
TL;DR Kirk played a lot and passed to Nick and Drew a lot.
Sophomore Year
Hinrich and his sophomore clan are back and the team started to mold to around them for a couple of reasons. One is that the upperclassmen were considerably weak. There were only two seniors (Kenny Gregory, Eric Chenowith) and one junior (Jeff Boschee) that had any meaningful impact on games. This team was basically a six man rotation (Axtell would occasionally sub in and shoot a bunch of threes inefficiently) with the the big three sophomores. The more pivotal reason was most of the weight was on the sophomores to produce results. And produced they did. By season’s end, the three sophomores led the three veterans in nearly every important statistical category:
Points – 1280 (53%) to 1150 (47%)
Assists – 347 (62%) to 38 (38%)
Rebounds – 590 (52%) to 550 (48%)
Steals – 94 (54%) to 77 (46%)
Blocks – 92 (60%) to 61 (40%)
Kirkatron finished the season fifth in the country in total assists. In addition to the assists, he led the conference in free throw percentage, shot 50.5% from three point land (which would have led the nation technically if he would have put up a couple more), and played in every single game for the Jayhawks.
Yes Kirk.
Junior Year
With the weak upperclassmen now out of Lawrence, and The Big Three becoming upperclassmen themselves, they entered their collegiate prime which would define their lore. But they brought some cavalry first. Kansas landed a horde of 4 and 5 stars to give Kirk and Co. a tier 1 rotation: Wayne Simien, Aaron Miles, Keith Langford, and Michael Lee.
Kansas led the country by a landslide with 680 total assists. Went 33-4 and 16-0 in the Big 12. And landed the No. 2 overall seed in the NCAA tourney.
Even though they lost in the Final Four to Maryland, another Steve Blake reference, twas fun to see him help guide a talented team that far.
Senior Year
Drew Gooden forewent his senior year for the National Basketball Association. The Big Three have been disbanded, perhaps two of them betrayed. But as any good boy from Iowa would do when adversity hits, they put their head down and go to work. This resulted in a third team All-American selection at season’s end. And about season’s end….
Fast-forward to tourney and as a #2 seed the Jayhawks tore through Utah State, Arizona State (Ike Diogu), Duke (Chris Duhon. JJ Redick. Shelden Williams), Arizona (Hassan Adams. Channing Frye. Salim Stoudamire. Luke Walton) and Marquette (Dwayne Wade. Steve Novak).
In the most epic way to end a blue-blood storybook career, he and Nick Collison found themselves in the national title against Carmelo Anthony and Syracuse. And we all remember how that ended.
It was real-life Mike Winchell coming up short in Friday Night Lights. Those final possessions probably haunt him a bit to this day. In hindsight you would argue that he should have launched the first three. But then you could argue that Michael Lee pump fakes and shoots a wide open three for tie. Unfortunately what resulted was Kirk having to hoist an off-balance air ball to end the game, and his college career.
Précis
As the nature and meaning of college basketball has seen a transformation over the past two decades, I would like to highlight that Kirk Hinrich embodied everything you would want out of a professionally-bound student-athlete. Today’s environment is filled with one-and-done phenoms and stepping stone mentalities from both players and coaches. We often become infatuated, myself included, with latching on to the next big thing or player, with only the shortest path to gratification possible. Kirk came to a cherished program looking to re-enter itself into the national championship conversations. Over four years he gradually improved himself and the team’s success. There were no off the court issues or scandals. Players left for the professional level and future stars entered in the latter part of his career. Kirk exemplified consistency his entire tenure. Kansas’ famed school chant is ‘Rock, Chalk, Jayhawk. KU’. Kirk was the ‘Rock’ for KU from 1999-2003.
Kirk was then drafted seventh to the Chicago Bulls in the 2003 NBA draft, one of the most heralded of all time. Seventh! I was 12 at the time, and my family was on vacation in Florida. I forced my family and the family that vacationed with us to the nearest bar to watch it happen. Weird flex for a 12 year old but ok.
Not going to go through his entire NBA career, but I followed him like a hawk, and literally when he was signed by the Hawks multiple times. I annoyed every sports fan in the world by calling him the best point guard in the NBA. I shot with him every time in video games. I have six items signed by him. He truly did inspire me to dive after loose balls, be the last one to leave the gym, and fight Rajon Rondo whenever appropriate.
It was a hell of a ride Kirk, I hope to have you on the Mid Range one day.
O Captain…My Captain….
CP: Well, that was extensive. And I know I give you shit for your Kirk Hinrich infatuation, but the love between a young boy and his basketball idol cannot be tainted. I would write some words about J.J. Redick here, but I think I’ll just leave it.
To the loyal readers who have made it this far, thanks for reaching the natural conclusion of a conversation that began with Patrick Mahomes – J.D. talking about Kirk Hinrich and definitely not crying while he types.
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